Comments on: Climate Change and the dissenters http://www.headrambles.com/2009/12/17/climate-change-and-the-dissenters/ Rambles around the head of an Irish Grandad Fri, 10 Feb 2012 01:20:49 +0000 hourly 1 By: Grandad http://www.headrambles.com/2009/12/17/climate-change-and-the-dissenters/comment-page-1/#comment-21919 Grandad Fri, 18 Dec 2009 17:13:52 +0000 http://www.headrambles.com/2009/12/17/climate-change-and-the-dissenters/#comment-21919 <p>TT - I have taken time off from my hectic schedule and have read the article in depth.  One of my big problems with it is that he is dismissing arguments with his 'fact', where his 'fact' is promptly challenged in the comments.  One of the big thorns in the side of the AGW crowd is the Medieval Warming Period.  It throws all their calculations haywire, so their answer is to dismiss/ignore it.  Appleyard dismisses it as a 'local phenomenon' which it wasn't.  I'm sorry, but this isn't my Damascus moment.</p> TT – I have taken time off from my hectic schedule and have read the article in depth.  One of my big problems with it is that he is dismissing arguments with his ‘fact’, where his ‘fact’ is promptly challenged in the comments.  One of the big thorns in the side of the AGW crowd is the Medieval Warming Period.  It throws all their calculations haywire, so their answer is to dismiss/ignore it.  Appleyard dismisses it as a ‘local phenomenon’ which it wasn’t.  I’m sorry, but this isn’t my Damascus moment.

]]> By: tt http://www.headrambles.com/2009/12/17/climate-change-and-the-dissenters/comment-page-1/#comment-21918 tt Fri, 18 Dec 2009 16:10:03 +0000 http://www.headrambles.com/2009/12/17/climate-change-and-the-dissenters/#comment-21918 And Grandad I would really like to hear your opinion on  Appleyard's column. And Grandad I would really like to hear your opinion on  Appleyard’s column.

]]> By: tt http://www.headrambles.com/2009/12/17/climate-change-and-the-dissenters/comment-page-1/#comment-21917 tt Fri, 18 Dec 2009 15:56:52 +0000 http://www.headrambles.com/2009/12/17/climate-change-and-the-dissenters/#comment-21917  No BS Mon Capitan. I wish I could express myself so well. I was starting to feel like El Lobo Solo on crack.  No BS Mon Capitan. I wish I could express myself so well. I was starting to feel like El Lobo Solo on crack.

]]> By: johnie http://www.headrambles.com/2009/12/17/climate-change-and-the-dissenters/comment-page-1/#comment-21915 johnie Fri, 18 Dec 2009 15:39:41 +0000 http://www.headrambles.com/2009/12/17/climate-change-and-the-dissenters/#comment-21915 good article that CC. another pressing point being raised at the moment is that we are running out of fresh water supplies at an alarming rate... <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL0GbdwXIXY" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL0GbdwXIXY</a>  on bbc iplayer as well I think. Worth a look. good article that CC. another pressing point being raised at the moment is that we are running out of fresh water supplies at an alarming rate…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL0GbdwXIXY 

on bbc iplayer as well I think. Worth a look.

]]> By: Cap'n Con http://www.headrambles.com/2009/12/17/climate-change-and-the-dissenters/comment-page-1/#comment-21914 Cap'n Con Fri, 18 Dec 2009 10:24:49 +0000 http://www.headrambles.com/2009/12/17/climate-change-and-the-dissenters/#comment-21914 Climate change sceptics are demanding smoking gun data from what is a modelling problem. The earth and all its sea and air currents is a complex system. One the one hand scientists all over the world plus those who live in areas already affected by climate change are reporting data which does suggest we have a serious problem emerging. But this isn't good enough for sceptics who demand 'proof'. Scientists can only point to data and come to a conclusion from that data. Sceptics say that the planet has 'warmed' over the past ten years but there is definitely some sponsored trickery going on there because they count from the last El Nino event- basically paid sceptics are indeed salami slicing data and holding it up as some kind of denial bible. Climate change sceptics are changing tack from outright denial to saying things like 'its a naturally occurring event so fuhgeddaboudit'. Climate change sceptics don't address the problem of methane escape in the arctic which is likely to be a killer on its own. I think Grandad even said a couple of weeks back that 350ppm carbon in the atmosphere is tiny- the problem is that we've gone from historically having low carbon atmosphere (under 100ppm most of our existence) to 350ppm in a short time and 450ppm is where there is a tipping point for non-recovery. I'm not an alarmist. I suspect that we will have a technological solution in a few years probably involving use of the oceans but there again we've got problems. We are poisoning the lowest level foodstuff in the oceans and that affects the entire planetary food chain. Fish stocks are being drastically depleted and if we do have extremes of weather due to our interference with the biosphere then we are going to see disaster on a huge scale within the next generation. I see more evidence for paid climate change denial than I do for a massive and unwieldy conspiracy among scientists to create alarm and therefore attract funding. I suspect that Naomi Klein's 'shock doctrine' has been twisted by the likes of the US fossil fuel industry, oil majors and car manufacturers to provide a 'conspiracy theory' behind which those who can't be fucked having any change to their lifestyle to do absolutely nothing. There was a very good piece in the Sunday Times last week- a supplement written by Brian Appleyard who declared himself a sceptic and was then asked to do a feature having researched the subject as best he could. He changed his mind when he reviewed the evidence and is now certain that we have a serious problem on our hands. I recommend the article as it carefully looks at the denier claims. <a href="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6931598.ece" rel="nofollow">http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6931598.ece</a>   Climate change sceptics are demanding smoking gun data from what is a modelling problem. The earth and all its sea and air currents is a complex system. One the one hand scientists all over the world plus those who live in areas already affected by climate change are reporting data which does suggest we have a serious problem emerging. But this isn’t good enough for sceptics who demand ‘proof’. Scientists can only point to data and come to a conclusion from that data. Sceptics say that the planet has ‘warmed’ over the past ten years but there is definitely some sponsored trickery going on there because they count from the last El Nino event- basically paid sceptics are indeed salami slicing data and holding it up as some kind of denial bible.

Climate change sceptics are changing tack from outright denial to saying things like ‘its a naturally occurring event so fuhgeddaboudit’. Climate change sceptics don’t address the problem of methane escape in the arctic which is likely to be a killer on its own. I think Grandad even said a couple of weeks back that 350ppm carbon in the atmosphere is tiny- the problem is that we’ve gone from historically having low carbon atmosphere (under 100ppm most of our existence) to 350ppm in a short time and 450ppm is where there is a tipping point for non-recovery.

I’m not an alarmist. I suspect that we will have a technological solution in a few years probably involving use of the oceans but there again we’ve got problems. We are poisoning the lowest level foodstuff in the oceans and that affects the entire planetary food chain.

Fish stocks are being drastically depleted and if we do have extremes of weather due to our interference with the biosphere then we are going to see disaster on a huge scale within the next generation.

I see more evidence for paid climate change denial than I do for a massive and unwieldy conspiracy among scientists to create alarm and therefore attract funding. I suspect that Naomi Klein’s ‘shock doctrine’ has been twisted by the likes of the US fossil fuel industry, oil majors and car manufacturers to provide a ‘conspiracy theory’ behind which those who can’t be fucked having any change to their lifestyle to do absolutely nothing.

There was a very good piece in the Sunday Times last week- a supplement written by Brian Appleyard who declared himself a sceptic and was then asked to do a feature having researched the subject as best he could. He changed his mind when he reviewed the evidence and is now certain that we have a serious problem on our hands. I recommend the article as it carefully looks at the denier claims.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6931598.ece

 

]]> By: robert http://www.headrambles.com/2009/12/17/climate-change-and-the-dissenters/comment-page-1/#comment-21913 robert Fri, 18 Dec 2009 01:17:24 +0000 http://www.headrambles.com/2009/12/17/climate-change-and-the-dissenters/#comment-21913 You're going to love this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/ethicalman/2009/12/in_praise_of_scepticism.html This quote resonated particularly with me: "A couple of days after my blog on cars was published, I was shocked to find an e-mail from an environmentalist who said it should never have been posted. He made no effort whatsoever to refute my claims, his argument was simply that it undermined the debate to publish such heresy." Combating pollution of the environment is one thing but this stupid endless talk about carbon this, carbon that! Give me strength! There is somewhere in the region of 6.5 billion people on the planet. Using the word billions make it seem small so in numbers that is 6,500,000,000 people breathing in oxygen and exhaling the dreaded 'C' word. Lots of talk about culling cows but little about culling people! To put 6.5 billion people into perspective that's the equivilent of 81,250 matches in Croke Park given a full capacity of  80,000. Or a full house each day for 222 years! And of course the global population is growing. You’re going to love this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/ethicalman/2009/12/in_praise_of_scepticism.html
This quote resonated particularly with me: “A couple of days after my blog on cars was published, I was shocked to find an e-mail from an environmentalist who said it should never have been posted. He made no effort whatsoever to refute my claims, his argument was simply that it undermined the debate to publish such heresy.”
Combating pollution of the environment is one thing but this stupid endless talk about carbon this, carbon that! Give me strength! There is somewhere in the region of 6.5 billion people on the planet. Using the word billions make it seem small so in numbers that is 6,500,000,000 people breathing in oxygen and exhaling the dreaded ‘C’ word. Lots of talk about culling cows but little about culling people!
To put 6.5 billion people into perspective that’s the equivilent of 81,250 matches in Croke Park given a full capacity of  80,000. Or a full house each day for 222 years!

And of course the global population is growing.

]]> By: not twitter http://www.headrambles.com/2009/12/17/climate-change-and-the-dissenters/comment-page-1/#comment-21912 not twitter Fri, 18 Dec 2009 00:52:55 +0000 http://www.headrambles.com/2009/12/17/climate-change-and-the-dissenters/#comment-21912 Frankly, I can't believe what I've been reading in this thread of comments. As a southern boy Elvis would be working in KFC not Burger King. Frankly, I can’t believe what I’ve been reading in this thread of comments. As a southern boy Elvis would be working in KFC not Burger King.

]]> By: paulo1 http://www.headrambles.com/2009/12/17/climate-change-and-the-dissenters/comment-page-1/#comment-21911 paulo1 Fri, 18 Dec 2009 00:21:57 +0000 http://www.headrambles.com/2009/12/17/climate-change-and-the-dissenters/#comment-21911 TT is obviously under the thrall of the great cabal that is making massive amounts of money off scare-mongering the rest of us back into caves. Why has everyone so quickly forgotten the leaked ( or stolen, I don't care which)  e-mails that at the very least raised the possibility that the "experts" were manipulating  information to create the exact scenario that justified their extremely profitable moral high ground? Does anyone remember the hole in the ozone layer that was going to send cancer rates through the roof ( sorry, I know there's a bad joke in there somewhere) and what happened? Cancer rates  increased dramatically, particularily in countries that traditionally had had low rates, like Japan, but guess what also happened at the same time? That's right, low cancer countries, like Japan( and the rest of the far east but I'm using one country to stand for all)  experienced a siesmic shift in their diet from seafood and rice ( oversimplified I know) to Big Macs, All dressed Pizzas and God forgive us all, Hotdogs! Sometimes the evidence under your nose is easy to over look because it smell so damn GOOD. TT is obviously under the thrall of the great cabal that is making massive amounts of money off scare-mongering the rest of us back into caves. Why has everyone so quickly forgotten the leaked ( or stolen, I don’t care which)  e-mails that at the very least raised the possibility that the “experts” were manipulating  information to create the exact scenario that justified their extremely profitable moral high ground? Does anyone remember the hole in the ozone layer that was going to send cancer rates through the roof ( sorry, I know there’s a bad joke in there somewhere) and what happened? Cancer rates  increased dramatically, particularily in countries that traditionally had had low rates, like Japan, but guess what also happened at the same time? That’s right, low cancer countries, like Japan( and the rest of the far east but I’m using one country to stand for all)  experienced a siesmic shift in their diet from seafood and rice ( oversimplified I know) to Big Macs, All dressed Pizzas and God forgive us all, Hotdogs! Sometimes the evidence under your nose is easy to over look because it smell so damn GOOD.

]]> By: Grandad http://www.headrambles.com/2009/12/17/climate-change-and-the-dissenters/comment-page-1/#comment-21908 Grandad Thu, 17 Dec 2009 19:43:05 +0000 http://www.headrambles.com/2009/12/17/climate-change-and-the-dissenters/#comment-21908 <p>TT - I agree I am not a climatologist, however I do know enough about science to know that some of the concerns raised are not only valid but would fundamentally change the whole prognosis.</p> <p>You accuse me of having a closed mind yet you are the one who refuses to even acknowledge that there may be errors.  You persist in your 'oil company conspiracy' theory even though you have no proof whatsoever.  Maybe you can pull a name or two out of the hat, but I refuse to believe that all of the concerns I have come across are 'oil funded'.</p> <p>I don't want to be rude, but frankly your outburst about the other 'conspiracies' is not helping any debate.  I just don't understand why your mind is so closed that you cannot even entertain the<em> idea </em>that anything could be wrong.</p> TT – I agree I am not a climatologist, however I do know enough about science to know that some of the concerns raised are not only valid but would fundamentally change the whole prognosis.

You accuse me of having a closed mind yet you are the one who refuses to even acknowledge that there may be errors.  You persist in your ‘oil company conspiracy’ theory even though you have no proof whatsoever.  Maybe you can pull a name or two out of the hat, but I refuse to believe that all of the concerns I have come across are ‘oil funded’.

I don’t want to be rude, but frankly your outburst about the other ‘conspiracies’ is not helping any debate.  I just don’t understand why your mind is so closed that you cannot even entertain the idea that anything could be wrong.

]]> By: tt http://www.headrambles.com/2009/12/17/climate-change-and-the-dissenters/comment-page-1/#comment-21907 tt Thu, 17 Dec 2009 19:23:53 +0000 http://www.headrambles.com/2009/12/17/climate-change-and-the-dissenters/#comment-21907 Except for thanking you for the topic,again, D for making my blood boil and Brighid for her thoughtfull contribution. Except for thanking you for the topic,again, D for making my blood boil and Brighid for her thoughtfull contribution.

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